So much stance hate on Raph's article.

"SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O)" (sammauri) 09/27/2014 at 15:02 • Filed to: None

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Personally, I embrace the stance. Lowered cars, in my opinion, tend to look better...

But my opinion doesn't matter. Looks are subjective and cannot be proven one way or the other. What really bothers me is that there seem to be a lot of people who see hot rods/rat rods, lead sleds, low riders, et al as cool parts of the historical automotive experience, and then say how stupid, ridiculous, and useless "stanced" cars are. Guys, I hate to break it to you, but it's the same thing. It really is. I've tried to explain this to so many people and some get it... Most don't.

Sure, they may not look the same. Sure, the exact ways people are modifying their cars now are different from O.G. hot rodders. Sure, teenagers are assholes, but we've always been assholes. Teenagers have been assholes since the dawn of time. I'm sure people thought you were an asshole when you were a teenager too, even if you weren't.

We should be embracing "stance" culture, not belittling it. This is a big part of the next generation of gear heads. These kids are doing insane Supra engine swaps into BMW 5-series, BMW 5-series engine swaps into Ford Model As, and LS swaps into everything else. The ones who can't afford all that settle for lowering springs and some nice wheels. Is that so wrong? Is what they are doing really so offensive that their enthusiast cards should be revoked?

I would say, no. And you may disagree. That's okay. In the end, it doesn't really matter what either of us thinks. Stance will be around for a while, and when its been given a new face and, hopefully, a better name people will hate on that too. We've gone from lowering blocks on leaf springs, to hydraulics, to air ride suspension (yes, coilovers too). The goal has always been the same: to make your car, your conduit of freedom, into a personal expression of self.

There is no logic in art. There is no logic in fashion. These are things that we could do away with and the world would continue to function, yet that would would be dull and gray. It would be a world I would hate to live in. For these kids, and for so many kids before them, their cars have been their art, and their fashion, and their creative outlet. Why do we hate that? Why must we tell them that they are so wrong?

I'll leave you with some of my favorite examples from the stance culture. Please feel free to kill me in the comments. My flame suit shall remain unadorned, as this is not something that should be the target of so much negativity.

Side note: My god. Stanceworks really sets the bar high with their photography.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:04

19

Stanceworks takes excellent photography; stance still sucks and can go extinct anytime, hopefully today, I'd like it to die right now; I'd celebrate like no one ever has.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 09/27/2014 at 15:07

2

Well, please don't hold your breath K-Roll. I would miss you on Oppositelock after you suffocated.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:07

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Suffocated? From what? At least you'd miss me.

Leadbull > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:08

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I think lowered cars can look good, but often times they do not, esp. if they're overdone.

I sometimes enjoy cars with flush wheels, but I'm not keen on Hellaflush and stretched tires.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 09/27/2014 at 15:08

1

From trying to hold your breath until stance died.

'Don't hold your breath' is a really weird saying, now that I think about it.

YSI-what can brown do for you > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:09

0

Guys, I hate to break it to you, but it's the same thing. It really is.

I am glad we share the same sentiment. However, I am not a big fan of rat rods, hot rods, and so on. Same goes for stance.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:11

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I have no beef with lowered cars. I do have beef with stretched tires, rubbing tires, excessive camber, cars scraping the ground while driving, giant stickers on windshields, and people saying that those modifications improve the car.

sdwarf36 > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:11

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I don't mind low ('cept if I'm stuck behind someone who can't pull in a parking lot)-but I DO mind -10 degrees of camber to get it there.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/27/2014 at 15:13

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And that is a perfectly understandable preference. Hearing that is actually refreshing. Hey, to each their own. Right? I understand not liking all of those things, but to like most of them and to not like the current interpretation...

Well, essentially this would be you (general you. not you, YSI):

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:16

3

Oh, now I see what you were saying, the day stance dies....

KoenigSTIGg > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:17

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The stance is not what most people don't like; it is the ridiculous chambers and stretched tires that people hate. The difference between ratrods and stanced cars are that ratrods where the best way to make an old car go fast, which is not true for stanced cars.

Vee Ate Injun > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:20

1

what about stance in the opposite direction?

bob and john > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:21

1

whao..........I'd DD that..

alkso, i dont mind stance...but the dumb amounts of cambner and being too low is bad. if its on bags then it almost 100% gets a pass in my books.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/27/2014 at 15:22

1

Is it a safety concern, or a stylistic one? Safety would make sense, but I would also think that a lot of these cars are still safer than Model T rat rods with no fenders, no visibility, and "suicide front suspension."

Yeah, that literally what this type of suspension set up is called.

Obviously rat rods are a lot less common than stanced cars, but still. My issue is not with people who dislike stance. Seriously, aesthetics are hugely personal and I fully understand and respect that. My issue is with people who pretend stance is so different from the historical versions of stance. I read one comment that defended rat rods/hot rods and call stanced cars 'rolling death traps' in the same sentence.

And to your last point, people who think scraping frame improves the car are lying to themselves. I can certainly agree with you there.

KnowsAboutCars > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:23

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This! 100 times this!

Jedidiah > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:26

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Ruined forever... :(

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Vee Ate Injun 09/27/2014 at 15:26

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That actually brings up another good point. The word "stance" means almost nothing. Stance (in automotive terms) refers to the way a car sits. A Bro truck has stance. A rock crawler Jeep has stance. Donks have stance. Race cars have stance. When you "stance" a car, it means you're changing the way it sits, usually to be more aggressive. The term "stance" is so aggravating to me.

To your point... Donks are my guilty pleasure so, yeah. I guess so.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:27

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I'm going to need a moment

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:28

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It is a safety thing, not for the drivers of the stanced cars, but for the other people on the road. Same with bro-trucks and donks.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:36

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I have zero issue with anyone's mods, so long as they are still safe and do not endanger anyone else on the road.

Most of the older lowered stuff does not need the drastic and crazy, insanely unsafe modification that modern cars require to achieve the same low.

Also, notice how absolutely NONE of the older stuff has any extreme camber?

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 09/27/2014 at 15:42

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The older stuff shown doesn't have crazy camber because I, personally, don't like the way it looks as much as a cleaner look. That doesn't mean people don't run camber on old cars.

And no, the last one isn't photoshopped...

D > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:43

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SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > KnowsAboutCars 09/27/2014 at 15:43

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Vracktal > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:45

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I actually really like stance when it's moderately done, not so much a fan when it's really overdone with huge flared arches and massively stretched tyres, like the infamous 'hyperstance' kawashima Celica.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > bob and john 09/27/2014 at 15:46

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I would definitely DD Rusty Slammington (that's his name).

I pretty much agree. I think there's a certain point where low is too low. Air bags seem to be the best way to have the look of laying frame without being a hazard. My car is much lower than stock, but it's still safe and isn't an issue over speed bumps. If I wanted to go much lower, I would definitely install bags.

But they're also expensive, which goes back to teenagers being happy with cut springs and a set of wheels because that's all they can afford.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > KoenigSTIGg 09/27/2014 at 15:48

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True for rat rods most of the time, but never true for lead sleds or lowriders. Most people like lead sleds. Who wouldn't? They're awesome. But a lot of them are just for looks, yet I've had conversations with people who hate stanced cars and love lead sleds and/or lowriders.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Leadbull 09/27/2014 at 15:50

1

I agree. Almost nothing looks good overdone. I think some camber looks good, but too much is too much. Unfortunately people see the stance scene and can only see the over-the-top cars when the majority of the scene isn't like that as shown (I hope) in the pictures I posted above.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 15:51

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Apart from the Beetle, those are not older cars. Those are all modern cars.

You do not see stupid camber angles on 1930s, 1940s and 1950s American cars when they are lowered. That Mercury led-sled is just as low as the new stuff, but it still have enough contact patch that it can actually be driven safely.

That last one is retarded and I hope they crushed it. Owner is an idiot for trying to drive on the public streets like that. By using the roads you agree to the social contract that comes with that access. Driving an unsafe car is not permitted.

Are the police singling-out 'stancers'? Yes, they are. I would be fine with them going after ANYONE with an unsafe car, regardless of whether the owner was even an enthusiast.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Vracktal 09/27/2014 at 15:56

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I agree 100%. That thing is way too over the top and that rear wheel set up just looks dangerous. The issue is that people only see the extremes. They see something like this when they picture the stance culture, when this type of insanity is the 1%. That's kind of what I was trying to get at with the pictures I posted. Most of the comments, even on this post, against stance keep referencing crazy stretched tires and 15+ degrees of camber because that's what stands out in their mind, but not what the majority of the stance scene is about.

It's like people the internet. A lot of us are good, nice, level headed people, a bunch of us are assholes, and 1% of us post rape GIFs on Jezebel. The nice people don't get any attention because there's nothing worth getting excited over, which is why it seems like assholes make up most of the internet. Then there's that 1% that takes it that much farther, and now the internet is ruined for the rest of us.

190e30-Now with COSWORTH > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:01

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This is the only one.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 09/27/2014 at 16:02

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I'm pretty sure MKi Rabbits and 40 year old BMW's are considered old at this point.

That said, you're right. Camber wasn't an issue in cars like old Mercs and Model As, but they had their own safety problems. I'm not trying to argue that one is more dangerous than the other or that stanced cars should get special treatment, I just think that the amount of hate that they get by the same people who love old hot rods/rat rods, lead sleds, et al. is unwarranted and less than logical. If you haven't heard of "suicide front suspension" setups on hot rods and rat rods, they're unfortunately a thing. They get some hate from hardcore hot rodders, but the set up is still very common and you generally won't get judged for it.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:06

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Unsafe=Uncool, regardless of what scene it belongs to.

40<80

An original Rabbit is still modern compared to a Model A.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > 190e30-Now with COSWORTH 09/27/2014 at 16:08

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I love this Model A, but if anything its worse than all of these GTIs getting pulled over in OC. I followed the build thread on this car and watched a bunch of videos. There's no visibility at all. Mike (the owner) can't see stoplights unless he's hanging out of the window, he's running a "suicide front suspension" setup (yes, that's actually what it's called), and the BMW V8 is 2 to 3 feet away from the end of the exhaust pipe so it doesn't even come close to following noise pollution laws. Yet, somehow, with all of these issues and the questionable safety of the car (though build quality and attention to safety was super high in this build) people will show this a lot of love and still hate on stanced cars.

The kicker? Mike also owned the rusted BMW 5-seires (whose name is Rusty Slammington), and that silver BMW 2800cs, both of which people LOVE to hate.

KoenigSTIGg > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:15

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Lead sleds are definitely just for looks, but they usually have the same purpose as they do before they got turned into lead sleds; just for looks. In my opinion, Lead sleds look better than stanced cars, but I understand different opinions, especially on visually appealing things. I think the major reason why people hate stanced cars is because of the illegal street racing/drifting that some of them are used for, because that shit is dangerous and just makes the racers look like complete idiots to other gearheads because the dropping and chambers and tire stretching actually make the cars worse at what they are supposed to do.

I do think stanced cars can look good if done right, and just for looks. That is the only thing they are better at than a normal version of a car. I don't think stanced cars are bad, but a part of the stanced culture is idiots that make people believe all people that have stanced cars are dicks.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/27/2014 at 16:16

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I completely understand and agree with that, though a lot of these cars , especially on air-bags, are actually are pretty safe. I agree that people running crazy camber and scraping frame when they're driving need to tone it down, but a lot of the picture you see of cars when they're park don't accurately depict the car's ride hight. A guy I worked with this summer had a beautiful Audi S4 on bags, and he set it up so that when he was driving on normal roads the car was actually a quarter of an inch higher than stock, but it could be lowered slightly for spirited driving/the occasional autoX or completely aired out when it was parked.

I'm not trying to say that the majority of these cars are as safe as stock, because they aren't. It's like anything else, like people the internet. A lot of us are good, nice, level headed people, a bunch of us are assholes, and 1% of us post rape GIFs on Jezebel. The nice people don't get any attention because there's nothing worth getting excited over, which is why it seems like assholes make up most of the internet. Then there's that 1% that takes it that much farther, and now the internet is ruined for the rest of us.

New stanced Audis and VW's are still probably a lot safer than classic cars (esp. those before the 70's where pedestrian safety wasn't a concern) but people aren't hating on classics. And if they were, we should not be talking to these people.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > KoenigSTIGg 09/27/2014 at 16:23

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Yeah, I agree 100% actually. But the thing is that, from what I've seen, these aren't the cars that people race. Have you seen videos of the Mexico Racing League? They all look pretty stock, but have thousands of dollars invested under the hood and do almost 200mph racing on open highways yet don't get nearly as much hate as the stance scene. Stance car drivers aren't the racers that people are looking for, though it's certainly true that drift culture and stance culture overlap. I've also noticed that a lot of the arguments against stance culture is not about the dangers of street racing, but more along the lines of "omg bro what a fucking idiot look at his ruined car try to get over a speed bump lol"

I made a comment to someone else that is relevant so I'm just going to copy and paste it here. Ahaha:

It's like people the internet. A lot of us are good, nice, level headed people, a bunch of us are assholes, and 1% of us post rape GIFs on Jezebel. The nice people don't get any attention because there's nothing worth getting excited over, which is why it seems like assholes make up most of the internet. Then there's that 1% that takes it that much farther, and now the internet is ruined for the rest of us.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:25

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"teenagers being happy with cut springs and a set of wheels because that's all they can afford"

...

*waves*

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 09/27/2014 at 16:28

2

*waves back*

Spent too much money on wheels. Now I can't afford anything else.
Crap.

KoenigSTIGg > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:29

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I think why stance gets more hate is because it is more relevant to most people. Pretty much every small town has a couple of illegal racers that have stanced cars, so people know about them and see the danger that they make, while barely anybody knows about the Mexico Racing League

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > KoenigSTIGg 09/27/2014 at 16:31

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That's a fair point. And I guess most people who have something like a rat rod/hot rod also have a car for regular driving, while a lot of teenagers with stanced cars only have that stanced car.

KoenigSTIGg > KoenigSTIGg 09/27/2014 at 16:31

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Also some people ruin rare cars with mods including stance so people hate them more

Battery Tender Unnecessary > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 16:43

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My biggest issue with stance is that you are effectively turning the car into an object to be looked at and looked at only. They are dangerous to drive, prone to damage when you do, and just wrong from the perspective of it being a car. Stanced cars hold as much appeal to me as a car as that hollow, plastic display i8 did the other day on here. I appreciate them the way I would an art exhibit...I cant repect them as cars.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Battery Tender Unnecessary 09/27/2014 at 17:12

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But my biggest issue is that's not always the case. "Stance" doesn't have any set guidelines. No one says that your car isn't stanced without excessive camber or poke. Most of the cars I posted above are on air bags, and are just as functional as the day they drove off the lot (except for the 260z and the S14). If whoever installed the bags knew what they were doing than they are just as safe and probably less prone to damage than a normal, low sports car with a front lip that catches on pavement whenever you pull into a gas station (this was a constant problem in my dad's 997. It was the factory ride hight). People have this view of the stance culture that is so negative because people are drawn to extreme examples. Cars with 15 degrees of camber do exist, it's true. I am not going to lie to you and say they don't. But they aren't as common as the internet would like you to think. I have, I don't know, maybe 14 friends with "stanced" cars. Only 3 of them has camber that I would consider excessive and 8 or 9 of them are on air bags. People are drawn to the most extremes. They like to view the world in ways that are easy to define and put in boxes. When it comes to car culture, all stanced cars have crazy camber and are unsafe, all people who drive Lamborghinis have low self esteem and are just showing off their money without actually knowing how to drive, and women don't like cars, when in fact none of those generalizations are true.

I made this analogy to someone else, and it's sort of relevant so I'll just copy and paste it here: It's like people the internet. A lot of us are good, nice, level headed people, a bunch of us are assholes, and 1% of us post rape GIFs on Jezebel. The nice people don't get any attention because there's nothing worth getting excited over, which is why it seems like assholes make up most of the internet. Then there's that 1% that takes it that much farther, and now the internet is ruined for the rest of us.

I do agree with you to some extent though. There is a limit to modifying your car where it no longer becomes functional. Once you pass that line, you're going to catch a good deal of (likely) deserved flack. But, in a world where you can raise your car up half a foot with a press of a button, that limit is not a clear line in the sand.

Unfortunately (and I hate to say this because I absolutely love every single one of your cars that I've seen) your argument could be said about your cars as well, to an extent. Someone who drives a Honda Fit might rightfully point out that, legally, you can't go any faster than they can on public streets. You probably can't carry as many passengers or as much stuff as they can, and while you will get to point B in more comfort and with more fanfare, they will get to point B just the same. To someone who drives a Honda Fit and doesn't appreciate the cars that you (and I) appreciate them, you're cars are pointless. They charge a premium for looking good, at the expense of usability. To them, your cars would be showy, and something just to be looked at and heard. In a world where you had to strictly follow the legal speed limit, they would almost be right. Car culture, as a whole, is not a logical beast. We have multi-million dollar cars that can't be used for any practical reason at all. Is a Bugatti Veyron practical? No. Is it more practical than a stanced S14? Well... Not really. Honestly the S14 has more cargo room, so the Bugatti is potentially less practical (depending on how stanced the S14 is).

Sorry for the rant, and I really, really do not mean any offense by that last paragraph. Hopefully I explained my thoughts well enough for that not to be an issue. Those are not views that I share, though they are views that I know exist, and I am extremely excited to start seeing your i8 pop up around Oppo.

Conan > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 18:10

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I don't think unsafe stuff should be on the road in general. I've been impressed by a lot of the lifted truck off roading and stance my students do though. It helps that a lot of it is done with the assistance of a fellow teacher though, the head of our Career and Technical Education center's automotive teacher.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 19:37

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Need moar low but can't afford lowering springs D:

pfftballer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:11

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duplicate.

pfftballer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:16

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This is why people hate this shit. Dumb people making their cars worse because they don't care to learn how cars work. At least all of the old solid axle rat rods etc don't have to resort to retarded levels of negative camber to get low.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > pfftballer 09/27/2014 at 20:18

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A suicide front end (or suicide axle) is a setup in which the front axle is mounted in front of the frame rather than under it. The entire front suspension is essentially just hanging out completely in front of the car. That's just what it's called.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > pfftballer 09/27/2014 at 20:19

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No, they don't use camber. They just put the front axle half a foot in front of where the front bumper would be...

pfftballer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:24

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No it literally is not. Look at the spring perches on that axle. This is not a transverse sprung solid axle. If you are going to reference something at least know a little bit about the thing you are referencing.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Conan 09/27/2014 at 20:30

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And I completely agree. If we're arguing safety, than I have nothing to defend. Unsafe is unsafe but, as you said, there are plenty of ways to lower the shit out of your car safely. Most of the people I know who have "stanced" cars work at garages and are techs or at least have a significant amount of help from techs. Others do what they can and find a good shop that is willing to help or do the work. While I do know a few kids who try and do everything themselves, their mods aren't a complicated and can be done in a garage. Installing coil overs isn't hard. Installing an air setup, on the other hand, is. There are certainly some limitations to what can be done safely and confidently by someone with limited experience in their driveway. I've done all kinds of work on my car, from swapping the differential, to replacing the transmission, to engine work, but I would still have someone help me with an air setup who actually knows what they are doing.

pfftballer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:31

1

It doesn't matter where the axle is. It's the tires and their contact patch with the road (or lack thereof) that dictates grip and drivability. You could argue F1 cars are "stanced" because of thier low ride height, but their suspension actually works, as it does on these old solid axle cars.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 09/27/2014 at 20:32

0

The struggle is real, dude. Too broke for lowering springs, but not desperate enough to cut the springs I have now.

Almost desperate enough, actually. But not quite there.

pfftballer > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:32

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You're just making shit up now aren't you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvers…

Dsscats > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 20:38

1

I dare someone to read Rusty's build thread and not fall in love with it.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > pfftballer 09/27/2014 at 20:46

0

Never mind. There's no point arguing about this.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Dsscats 09/27/2014 at 20:46

0

It's impossible. Absolutely impossible.

And now that he's being brought back to life? Even more impossible.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > D 09/27/2014 at 20:52

0

Ahahahaha. This is great. Thank you for that.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > pfftballer 09/27/2014 at 21:27

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I believe you are referring to something like this:

But with a solid axle. Would that be correct?

If it is, than (while you're not technically wrong because that is also sometimes referred to as a suicide setup) you need to travel farther that Wikipedia for your automotive colloquialisms

Hope these three can provide some insight. There are plenty of explanations on designated hot rodding forums. You don't have to believe me, but I feel like people who are building hot rods can be trusted.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/sho…

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Suicide_f…

http://www.killbillet.com/showthread.php…

usually a suicide front end means that the frame horns are chopped, a tube us used for the front crossmember, and a spring perch is mounted out front so the frame can be significantly lower in front..

also, this usually uses a spring behind front axle.. not a dropped spring over axle.

a dropped axle isn't needed to clear the framerails since it's in front, not under.

both of these modifications push the front wheelbase further and further forward.

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Another thing, which is one of the most significant things to mention. The weight is not carried by the axle, because it is no longer distributed over the axle. Now, the 70 year old bones or 1/8 inch , if you are lucky, new wishbones are not designed to take the full weight of the entire front of car. Consider slaming on the brakes to a stop. Do you think it is only the 6 or700 pounds of your small block then? The original bones and newer radius rods were designed for axle angle, leverage and as a strut. So when you change that fulcrum, then add 700 pounds of new engine and trans on a re-engineered.geometry wise, front end, all that weight is focused on those two little spring pivots with no axle beneath to save your ass when one snaps. Here's an even scarier thought, when I call Speedway to ask if they had larger pivots, the guy on the phone, whom I ordered from, said no. I asked if they ever get complaints with the 1/2 inchers and he said no, but that he had popped one going over a bridge to a show. He said it was old? Anyway, like PA41, I welded gussets of cut 2x2 DOM around my pivots, so if they pop, I am covered Now, what's even scarier, is the fact that Speeway 's pivots are only 1/2 inch. and the 5/8 pivots that Total P. used to make are gone. So most rodders are hanging 700-8— pounds on two 1/2 inch bolts. Not to mention bones and even new radius rods just arn't designed, period, to carry and the stop that kinda weight from moving speeds. With speed that weight is amplified to tons of weight. Now thats suicide, man!

The Pork

Here's a good example:

When that guy is driving along, his entire life essentially depends on that one bolt in the red circle, and the other bolt on the opposite side. Two bolts hold his front end on. To put it as simply as possibly in the context of hot rodding, a suicide front axle means your axle is way in front of your car and is held on by not much. If it breaks... Oops! You probably die. Interestingly, this is also the reason for the name. Does that make more sense?

Just a note: Your high school and college professors asked you not to use Wikipedia as a source on research papers for a reason. A lot of information is on there, and a lot of information isn't.

RachelCoburn > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 21:30

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I just look at all these low slung cars and think my youthful days around the guys at my high school. The kids would convert their cars to low-riders, hit a pothole, smash the oil pan and burn out their engines in the space of a few months.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > RachelCoburn 09/27/2014 at 21:31

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Ahaha. I have witnessed some oil pan fractures as well. Not a good time. A lot of these cars (that I posted, at least) have air bag suspension setups, so keeping a stock of oil pans in your garage is a thing of the past!

RachelCoburn > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 21:38

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Oh Thank God. I had a vision of everyone of those cars with a big black oil streak behind it, driving down the road...

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/27/2014 at 22:21

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I'm desperate enough. Thinking of doing it in a week or so.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 09/27/2014 at 22:31

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Do it! The only reason I haven't is because I really do need new springs. My rears have sagged so much since the 70's. I can't even let people sit in my back seat anymore or the back squats down to the point that the tire rubs on the fender. My cheapest option is to buy OEM springs and cut those, but if I'm going to spend any money at all I'd rather buy lowing springs.

The Bavarian Barbarian > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 09/29/2014 at 12:19

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Whats funny is that there are some air suspension kits that actually outperform their coilover counterparts. so you get your stance when you are parked AND your performance on the road. stance and all that drop-it-to-the-ground stuff is great IF you can maintain a functioning car at the same time... which takes more time and money than most people are willing to put into their cars

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > The Bavarian Barbarian 09/29/2014 at 12:43

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Airbags have progressed a lot in the last few years. A guy I work with has a beautiful B5 S4 pushing something like 600hp. I mean, it's absolutely stunning and is fast as hell, but it's still on bags. He's put a lot of work into it, and he rips it around the track and said that the bags he has now are just as good, if not better, than the coils he had before. But when it's parked and aired out... It just looks mint.

Chatham Harrison dba SPANFELLER DELENDUS EST > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 10/01/2014 at 01:03

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I know I'm late to the party, but this is my main concern:

For every Rusty Slammington, etc. there are five idiots who want to replicate the look. I don't mind the camber and the stretched wheels, as long as it's on a car that never goes on the highway and travels from show to show on a trailer. After all, the high camber *is* race-inspired, and driving a racing car on the street isn't a great idea, either. Hot rods weren't such an issue back in the day, but customs were, and a lot of customs were piles of shit that had no business on the road. Hell, most of George Barris's creations were abysmal drivers. They were meant to be seen, not driven. Now, as then, the cheap, accessible option are late-model cars. '49 Mercurys aren't filling the used car lots anymore, but '97 Civics, '92 Audis, and '03 350Zs are. Actually, a lot of the hate I hear around Jalopnik regarding stance reminds me of 50s hot rodders' criticisms I've seen regarding custom cars.

So, to the point, I don't see Rusty Slammington cruising by me. I see a jackass in a rusty Civic, with neon green overspray on his tires because he didn't mask his wheels before he painted them, with a half-attached exhaust and a tow loop, struggling vainly to keep his car on the road before sliding into a jersey barrier and breaking off a wheel, because there was a sudden rainstorm and his stretched tires didn't have tread on their sidewalls. Or a pretty nice-looking Lexus SC300, with a layer of rubber on the inside of the fender where it's been slowly rubbing a groove into the tire.